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Christine

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Reply with quote  #16 
This conversation immediately brings to mind the artist Lowry and the song about his work, Matchstick Men and Matchstick cats and dogs.  I now have this song going around in my head.


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joysofold

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Reply with quote  #17 
Would using the word 'Artisan' help define the meaning of handmade i.e. Artisan Handmade Creations. 
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allaboutthebuttons

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Reply with quote  #18 
What a slippery slope!!! Craig, you said "(IMHO) I think what handmade means to me is that someone thought of the idea."   A knit hat is far from an original idea. A pendant on a chain is not nor is a greeting card with a photo.
A factory produced item is not handmade as you said in your clarification but we still have to be careful. My tape measures as an example: the actual tape is factory made. I alter them. Where do they fall in the definition?

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Christine

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by allaboutthebuttons

A factory produced item is not handmade as you said in your clarification but we still have to be careful. My tape measures as an example: the actual tape is factory made. I alter them. Where do they fall in the definition?


How about "Artisan hand embellished" ?

You have some very pretty tape measures

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allaboutthebuttons

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Reply with quote  #20 
I wasn't looking for a compliment but thank you, Christine! I am always reluctant to use labels on anything, I guess.
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byEmilie

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Reply with quote  #21 
Didn't Ebay take their business to some different levels when they first started out and from what I remember added on Ebay Motors because that became such a big section and outgrew the regular sections of Ebay.

Etsy and ArtYah already have Antiques and Supplies ...Etsy also has Wholesale I believe (not too sure how that's listed)  but it would be nice if Etsy added Manufactured Crafts or Embellished Manufactured or something like that to cover the difference between handmade by hand and factory made embellished.

... and why couldn't Artyah do something like that right from the start ...that way this gives ArtYah a chance to really grow and as long as it's set up that way right from the start Buyers and Sellers would have those boundaries set from the get go.

Yes, there will be people who are going to fudge intentionally to gain some ground but overall those will be exposed because many of us already know how to look for that and than those could be just leveled over to the proper areas within the site. 

Etsy would have a lot to gain by doing that now itself rather than have buyers getting scammed when they really think they're getting handmade and than find out it's manufactured... and I think that basically is what a site like ArtYah is trying to avoid while trying to stay true to itself.

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Lynne-LMRCreations

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Reply with quote  #22 
Emillie  I like the idea of having a manufactured section but, I could see people still listing under the handmade section instead.

It is such a slippery slope.  Most of us would use the correct sections but, there will always be those that won't.

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catwands

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtsyCrafteryStudio


And in the other thread there are things that are being said about what is not handmade that I don't think are fair at all to many crafters. https://artyah.discussion.community/post/what-is-your-definition-of-handmade-9616520?pid=1302917781

@Craig What you said about your stick figure not being of value means that you don't value it. If you don't value your work nobody else will. Stick figures are precious and loved for children's decor. I can create a piece of artwork starting with a stick figure that a new mother would love and value. I can put a twist on it and create something that a bride, groom or newly-engaged couple would love.

@Craig I don't agree that what makes a handmade pendant necklace is a diamond pendant versus a pendant of less value, when they both were made the very same way, by hands putting them together.

As I said in the other thread, being too restrictive is going to cut out a lot of artists and crafters. Artyah does not need that with trying to grow and build membership. It's your site and your right to make whatever stipulations you feel are necessary, but with the way that the discussions are going in the way of purifying the creative flow, it's going to offend many who are handmades sellers.



Thanks for posting the link.😉

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mjchischilly

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Reply with quote  #24 
Such a debate about the definition of Handmade!  It's a tough one in a lot of ways.  My thought is that someone taking a manufactured charm (that they just ordered from a catalog) out of a bag and putting it on a chain is Not handmade.  Does it become "handmade" if the person strings a couple of extra beads onto  the chain?  I don't know.  Someone mentioned  painters having cards printed by a printer as Not.  Would that include prints and posters of their work also not considered handmade?  Prints have long been a way for graphic artists to make a living from their art. So reproduction of original art in any form is Not? 
At the moment, I sell cast reproductions of my designs.  AS much as it breaks my heart, I am no longer able to make a living producing everything as handmade, one-of-a-kind (disability coupled with age).  Right now, I am able to design, sculpt, make my own molds, cast the work, finish and fire to completion.  As I get older, I may still be able to design and sculpt, but have to have the production done by someone else.  I, myself, am already conflicted about this even at this stage of my life as an artist/crafts person.  Am I still a legitimate artist/crafter... or Not?
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artyah

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjchischilly
Such a debate about the definition of Handmade!  It's a tough one in a lot of ways.  My thought is that someone taking a manufactured charm (that they just ordered from a catalog) out of a bag and putting it on a chain is Not handmade.  Does it become "handmade" if the person strings a couple of extra beads onto  the chain?  I don't know.  Someone mentioned  painters having cards printed by a printer as Not.  Would that include prints and posters of their work also not considered handmade?  Prints have long been a way for graphic artists to make a living from their art. So reproduction of original art in any form is Not? 
At the moment, I sell cast reproductions of my designs.  AS much as it breaks my heart, I am no longer able to make a living producing everything as handmade, one-of-a-kind (disability coupled with age).  Right now, I am able to design, sculpt, make my own molds, cast the work, finish and fire to completion.  As I get older, I may still be able to design and sculpt, but have to have the production done by someone else.  I, myself, am already conflicted about this even at this stage of my life as an artist/crafts person.  Am I still a legitimate artist/crafter... or Not?


It is unfortunately difficult to judge true handmade V.S manufactured handmade. I hope that makes sense and is not offensive. I can totally understand the logistics. A person has an idea and that is to make something by hand. Whether it was a manufactured chain with manufactured pendants added to it, to someone that fabricated the chain and also created the jewelry to go onto it. It is a tough call and maybe there should be some kind of guide for this. If there is not already one available.

Thank you,

Craig

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mjchischilly

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Reply with quote  #26 
"True Handmade"... a fraught and difficult subject in so many ways.  In a way I have been down this road of seeing rules rescinded , ignored and the "definition" changed on Etsy and, before that, at the Renaissance festivals where I used to sell.  Like Etsy, the original Renfests were strict about handmade rules and policed the vendors.  (Etsy was never as tight about these things, but used to be better.)  If someone was caught with manufactured goods, their festival shop was shut down then and there and they were out.  I was originally attracted to the festivals because of this.  Believe it or not, the Renaissance festivals used to be a true class act!  The the corporations started noticing the $$$$ to be made.  Started buying them out and degrading the standards.  Sound familiar? 
The reason I was attracted to Artyah was the hope that the integrity of handcrafted goods might actually be respected here.  I don't think weavers and knitters should grow their own cotton and have herds of sheep, spin their own yarn and thread.  I don't think potters should dig and refine their own clay.  But it Is easy enough to check catalogs and know that someone is ordering factory goods and passing them off as handmade.
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allaboutthebuttons

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Reply with quote  #27 
Reminds me of a few years ago of a site, now gone, that called out items. They listed dozens and dozens shops with the same  necklace with a bird charm posted under "handmade".
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byEmilie

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Reply with quote  #28 
Might get blasted for this way of thinking but so be it ... I think there are enough sites out on the internet now that sell a variety and if someone wants to buy manufactured goods and piece them together without also doing some handwork of their own to add and than call it handmade .... go sell elsewhere  ...to have a  handmade site as ArtYah originally set itself up to be would be unique and totally offer something to the customer that in time would resonate with all those customers and be fair to the crafter or artist. There's also the difference between fine arts and cottage industry (basically a crafter). We know what we're thinking but to put it into words is so very hard.

I agree with mjchischilly on many points she made having sold at many art and craft fairs through the years, myself. Resellers have taken over many great shows and consequently many of those shows no longer exist because customers found out they were buying manufactured items they could get anywhere ...again manufactured not handmade.

But next you have the artist who designs their own design for a T-shirt or jewellery maker, takes the time to print it on a T-shirt or make the piece of jewelry . Becomes  a popular item and than along comes a manufacturer from elsewhere copies that same design and does the knock off item, only to start selling that same design all over the place including the original site the original artist was on. This is rampant on Etsy. How does one go about correcting that situation.  There are so many unscrupulous people and businesses when it comes to dealing in the arts and craft industry or any business if one wants to face reality ... it's sickening. 

My only thought is good luck with trying to classify or differentiate "true handmade" from  manufactured handmade. I've said this before within a site that offers handmade , manufactured handmade have that set up right from the start. Separate sections just like supply/ vintage or antique / crafts / even fine art .... so one can navigate from section to section and hopefully find that unique item they are looking to find, buy and enjoy! Should they find what they are looking for in manufactured at least than they know they're going to be getting a manufactured item  and than that's OK too....

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SewNSewSister

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Reply with quote  #29 
Very well stated mjchischilly! Your obvious experience and background re: Handmade makes this a 'must read'. Thank you.
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mjchischilly

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Reply with quote  #30 
Differentiating between handmade and manufactured should at least be a goal.  Will any site always be able to enforce it?  No.  But it does not mean don't even try.  Before I left the festivals, the integrity of every true craftsperson was called into question because of the manufactured goods that were being allowed... "corporate crafters" (oh, yeah, corporations are people, too... grr-rr). I had customers laugh in my face and call me a liar when I told them I made everything. 

When I left the festivals, there was a group that was setting up at many of the fests that came in and built $75,000 booths so it made the festival look really good and management was eager to have them.  Opening weekend, they sent out their people to all the shops to look over the goods.  Before the festival ended, they literally had already stolen many crafter's designs, sent them to China to be copied, and had them on their shelves at a greatly reduced price.   I kid you not,  by the end of the season. Oh, and the theme of their shop -  PIRATES.
I know I have no real answers.  I just hope that Artyah doesn't lower the gangplank for the corporate-manufactured-faux-handcraft PIRATES without even firing a few shots accross the bow.
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